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Forum Index > Suggestion Box > The Issues with Themes
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Author Thread Post
Aelingalathynius
Level 75
Trickster
Joined: 7/9/2017
Threads: 37
Posts: 439
Posted: 12/29/2021 at 9:30 PM Post #31
Woo finally have time to write my post!

So. Hello. Considering I'm the author of a thread about brown themes being an issue AND the creator of the spreadsheet, it's unsurprising I am Here With Issues. Most of what I have to say is from the perspective of a rikki collector, so gonna focus on rikkis.

I'm going to start with the proliferation of certain colors in themes. I want to make clear first though, that I am not saying a) all brown themes are bad b) I dislike all brown themes or c) I dislike anyone who submits brown themes. Forest Caller rikkis are one of my favorite rikki themes, and they are undeniably brown. The issue is not the quality of the brown theme, it's the issue that there are SO many brown themes. I'd be just as upset if it were an issue with green, pink, red, blue, etc. There are just too many. It's especially frustrating when the new brown theme is admin designed/pulled from a previous fest, as each fest SO many lovely rikkis get submitted for themes in a whole rainbow of colors. I know not every submission is perfect, but off the top of my head I can think of at least 5 rikki submissions from this fest that work on a technical level, are brightly colored, and at least subjectively look lovely. Was it really not possible to find one for the zone rikki?

I know in the past it's been mentioned that the theme contests aren't supposed to be "contests" but just a way for Krin and Fai to get some more ideas for themes/an idea of what the community would like, but in reality they function as contests for designing themes. It'd be one thing if every fest most themes were admin designed/mostly admin designed, and only a few were direct from player submissions, but this just isn't the case. The majority of designs each fest come directly from players. Again, maybe this wasn't how it was supposed to work, but it's how it's working now.

I know the admins are both very busy, and I'm sure checking through EVERY theme for EVERY species is time consuming, frustrating work. However, it's even more frustrating when so much of one species is either only one color, or look very similar in general. Rikkis aren't half as bad as bulbs in this regard, but the issue is still there. I know some have pointed out that 3/6v versions do look different, but this kind of ignores the issue. If the species is a sculpting theme, at best it will be 3v, and usually only 2v. Some people may project it to become 6v, but I don't feel it's fair to judge a theme as "good" if it only looks that way with 6 vis. Furthermore, if it's a zone theme, at most it will usually have 1 visible trait (legendaries + epics being an exception and far less common, especially for rarer species like zone fabled, neph, rikki). Saying "but look how good the 3vis version looks" when 90% of the pets are 2c-2v at most kind of misses the point.

As for admin changes to designs, I can't cite any personal experience as I haven't had a design picked and am not exactly a prolific designer. But I am friends with several, and I can tell it is genuinely upsetting when they put hours into designs, only for it to get picked but be changed beyond recognition. I know several who stopped collecting a species because they felt too embarrassed to claim it as their theme after changes gave it contrast issues/changed the original spirit of the design. I understand making tweaks might sometimes be necessary, but major changes? If a theme can't stand on its own, why not pick a different one? It feels unfair that this either a) gives someone credit for a design they now didn't really make or b) changes a design so badly the designer no longer wants to claim it.

Overall, I think there either needs to be some sort of major change to how admins consider themes (an official theme catalog, perhaps? Or a color coded theme guide?) or an overhaul to the system entirely. I'm not in favor of giving the community complete control over how themes are picked, nor do I really think any "anonymous voting system" would work (it would not stay anonymous lmao), but I do think SOME form of community input might help.

Those are my thoughts as of now. May add if I realize I forgot anything.
SpaceElf1
Level 75
Ghost Writer
Joined: 9/17/2014
Threads: 669
Posts: 12,858
Posted: 12/29/2021 at 9:40 PM Post #32
You're right, Aeling; it is a contest. There's a prize given to each person who submitted a Theme that is chosen for an upcoming Festival ("2-VisThemed Pet Of Choice"). If not for these prizes, there would be even fewer members of many Zone Theme Nephinies.

That's why I asked whether anyone knows if the designer receives a prize when their Theme from a previous contest is selected.
Scathreoite
Level 75
Hand of Destiny
Joined: 11/2/2014
Threads: 83
Posts: 4,115
Posted: 12/29/2021 at 11:21 PM Post #33
confirming that you do, as the person who designed the peacock butterfly theme as a submission last year that got picked this year *holds up out 2v exclusive prize peacock butterfly lune*
Edited By Scathreoite on 12/30/2021 at 12:02 AM.
SpaceElf1
Level 75
Ghost Writer
Joined: 9/17/2014
Threads: 669
Posts: 12,858
Posted: 12/29/2021 at 11:30 PM Post #34
Ah, thank you Scath. That was worrying at me.
Vampory
Level 75
The Carver
Joined: 3/31/2017
Threads: 47
Posts: 2,992
Posted: 12/30/2021 at 12:04 AM Post #35
yes but bulb collectors are going to have to wait *years* for that to happen already. And I doubt krin is going to add many more traits to them for a while because itll be easier for the revamp if they dont have as many traits to rework by then
Vampory
Level 75
The Carver
Joined: 3/31/2017
Threads: 47
Posts: 2,992
Posted: 12/30/2021 at 1:48 AM Post #36
I dont have much to stay here in way of a rebuttal but Id like to point out the sheer number of bulb themes that happen to use brown if not have brown as a primary base color. I was the one who got the data for Aelingalathynius to put into their graph, I looked purely at base colors when categorizing and *not* what they look like with traits, otherwise I think my results would have been a lot more biased because in my personal opinion. (Ex: The ancient mosaic was not listed as a brown theme in the pie chart, because the base color is primarily black. Lepiota bulbs are white and brown but because their base color is white they went under white. Forest shadows went under grey, etc etc.) < Point is, the pie chart you see there i tried to keep as much of my personal opinion out as possible by restricting myself from looking at anything other than base colors.

However if you want my personal opinion, I went through my stables and put every bulbori I own that uses brown in the generator. Yes, there are some that have a majority of another color, but once again one thing they all have in common? Theres some brown in there-- somewhere. They all have dutch, advanced runes, and jeweled feather wings. The max youre going to find naturally in the wild is a three vis, so I figured this was reasonable. (I used dutch because it shows the g1 color well, advanced runes because it shows the g3 accurately without covering too much, and jeweled wings for their fade as well as viewing size.)

My personal list of every bulb theme that uses brown somewhere in its color palette:

Morning Sun
Stuffing
Ashen Fall
Coconut Octopus
Sweet Tea
Candlewax
Mysterious Path
Permafrost
Fall Harvest
Chocolate Candy
Sand Rabbit
Darling Deer
Edited By CthuwuKrak3n on 12/30/2021 at 1:49 AM.
Vampory
Level 75
The Carver
Joined: 3/31/2017
Threads: 47
Posts: 2,992
Posted: 12/30/2021 at 1:48 AM Post #37
Flying Fox
Sunken Treasure
White Chocolate
Underground Depths
Spring Dawn
Forest Shadow
Pumpkin Bread
Tundra Sunrise
Ancient Mosaic
Frosty Soil
Swamp Tree
Peppermint Bark
Mint Chocolate Chip
Lepiota
Grey Bunny
Devious

Thats 28 out of 76 themes, 21 of which i listed as brown for the pie chart based on a brown base color-- not accounting for additional traits. (And not counting pretag chocolate bulboris)

Im not saying designers should never use brown, because I think thats a little unreasonable. But There *are* way too many bulbori themes atleast that simply use brown in some sort of way, as bulboris dont have advanced enough color slots/trait options that when you use even brown in *one* or two slots it will show up everywhere on your design. The peppermint bark bulbori only uses brown in one slot, however it makes a big impact on the overall look-- the overall look being brown, white, and red.



Grey Bunny's color palette:

Amongst the greys are a bunch of brown/grey-browns.
And for a lot of these bulb themes its just the *usage* of brown in general where I dont think its needed.

I like a lot of these designs, and I collect them never-the-less, but there is un arguably an issue with the prevalence of the color among designs. And not just for the bulboris-- i can only speak for them however, because theyre the species im most well versed with.

Once again, I dont expect people to just never use brown in designs ever again. Its not a color that deserves some-- permanent blacklist or something. But we do not need anymore, and it frustrates me that the admins continue to pick more and more brown themes to add to the majority we already have. There are more brown themes than blue for most species-- and Krins favorite color is blue! What does that say about their pick rates?


And I will comment on Spelfs point too on the Saturation issue. While it was not brought up in the original post, I also agree that I see a lot of desaturated themes. I *love* rich and brightly colored themes, its one of the reasons I have two and a half dedicated to Pink Hibiscus Bulboris. I dont love everything about them, but I love how vibrant and different they look!< (the girl that started my obsession)
Edited By CthuwuKrak3n on 12/30/2021 at 2:06 AM.
Aphelion
Level 75
Fright Master
Joined: 5/14/2016
Threads: 113
Posts: 9,837
Posted: 12/30/2021 at 2:36 AM Post #38
I completely agree with you! There are far too many brown/blue themes compared to others.

Again, what I meant was when we do happen to choose another theme of whatever colour, while we should be trying for variety, sometimes it is inevitable that colours will overlap, and that shouldn't be a huge deal. Of the examples you have, there's plenty of variety in there's different shades of brown (and I mean for the 0vis bulbs). At the same time, in the sample you gave, there are a lot that look the same and should probably be cause for reform. The example Typh gave on page 3 is a serious example of what shouldn't be happening, because even with visible traits the themes are looking really close to one another.

Please don't take this as an argument against the point of this thread - I like to think of it more as a subtopic, haha
Vampory
Level 75
The Carver
Joined: 3/31/2017
Threads: 47
Posts: 2,992
Posted: 12/30/2021 at 2:51 AM Post #39
ahhh I see.

I suppose the way I see it, is that theres only so many shades of brown you can go through and only so many colors you can pair with them. Its just that when going through all of the themed bulboris, it starts to become repetitive with another shade of brown after another.

Theres so many brown bulbs with variety already-- I feel its time to,, I dunno, make some different varieties of green. Or yellow. Those are both colors bulbs lack. Teals as well are missing. Theres an entire color spectrum yet somehow it all boils back down to a different shade of brown.

And brown isnt inherently bad, different shades can be paired with lots of different vibrant colors-- but I just wish that there werent already so many of those.
Savynn
Level 75
Sweet Solver
Joined: 12/18/2012
Threads: 214
Posts: 4,485
Posted: 12/30/2021 at 6:53 PM Post #40
It's kinda interesting how different people perceive certain colors. Looking through those bulbories, while most of them do have what appears brown to me, a few of them I wouldn't think of as brown. It reminds me of an argument I got into with my husband. He claimed with great certainty that something was red but I looked at it and it was more orange than red. Definitely on the reddish end of orange but not red.

I suppose this really doesn't add much to the discussion really but it's something I find interesting. How we think of a color isn't necessarily how another person thinks of the same color. There's definitely a lot of bulbories with brown though. I personally love brown myself but I've been trying to avoid using it as much in themes lately since I know it's not always as loved by others.
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